Transcript: VR Applications & the Future of "Going to the Movies" (Void, James Jensen & Ken Bretschneider)


Laurel: I’m here with the guys from The Void. We’re here at TED. TED 3026. Welcome James Jenson and Ken Bretschneider. Welcome to Series A. So let’s talk a little bit about your company as a company, not just as a freaky ass experience here at TED where everybody walks in disbelieving and walks out convinced that you’re the future. Let’s talk a little bit about how you guys came up with the idea and also where you plan to take the business as a business cause I think this thing is going to rock the world. So let’s start with who came up with the idea?

Jack: Well I think it was a combination of all of us but this journey kind of began for me about 16 years ago now and I had this concept of mapping a virtual world over a physical world and then came Bretschneider and Curtis Hickman in early 2014. And Curtis Hickman and Ken were actually building Evermore Park. It is [unclear], Evermore Park that had all kinds of effects. You actually became one of the characters in the park in the changeover time and due to that project Ken and Curtis and I came up with creating this thing called The Void where it was this virtual world mapped over a physical world and I think it’s looking fine.

Laurel: I’m just gonna read the welcome sign to The Void to give you sense of what, what kind of a welcome you are gonna get. It says “The Void is an exciting walkthrough interactive experience that involves sudden and intense sounds, visual effects, pressurized air effects, temperature change, sudden drops and hands on interaction with practical objects. It is advised that persons that are pregnant have PTSD, vertigo, back pain, agoraphobia, trouble ascending or descending stairs, seizures, epilepsy, or sensitivities to the following should not enter The Void.” Sounds a little scary. What the hell is that? What the hell if you had to like explain what this is to your grandmother, what would you say?

Jack: Oh man. Say lots of things. It’s really a trip into another world. That’s really what our vision is. By doing that we take over all senses. Right? So we aren’t just a VR company, a lot of people think.

Laurel: Yeah. Tell what VR is.

Jack: VR. Virtual reality in the sense that people think of it as far as just the visual sense. We think the true experience of VR is total immersion, meaning that we hit all of your senses, your sense of smell, sight, hearing, you know, touch, everything. Right? So the environment that we’re creating is something that hits all of your senses and makes you feel like you’re completely immersed in another world.

Laurel: Has anybody tried anything like this? What could we compare it to? It’s not like paint ball. Where else do you don a full vest and helmet and who else does this kind of thing?

Jack: Ah, scuba divers. [LAUGHTER] Maybe that’s it. That’s a good comparison. I saw a meme once that said, it was a picture of a scuba diver. And it said who would ever put on virtual reality equipment to experience another world? And it’s like this scuba diver guy, right, and it’s like this best meme ever.

Laurel: That is the best meme. Yeah.

Jack: And I think it’s, we want people to forget they have the equipment on. We want it to be super easy for people to put the gear on and then forget about it and then go into a new world and just experience it. There’s no learning curve in The Void, basically put the gear on you and then say go do what you normally do. Go around and sit on things and grab things and experiment. And have fun with it.

Laurel: Yeah. That’s unbelievable. So tell me a little bit about what, a little bit about how you came up with the concept and then how it developed. I imagine it didn’t come fully; it didn’t appear as it is now. Like what was the development process like?

Jack: Yeah. It started out pretty simple. We had basically a two wall system and you were walking in a circle and it was done with this different jacking method. Once we figured out that we could that we moved to a bigger system and then Curtis.

Ken: I want to say something about that though because it was really cool. It was a really neat experience.

Jack: Yeah.

Ken: We took kind of the best of the off the shelf stuff that we could find, put together a small development team to create kind of an environment for it which was like a spaceship. And you know I plunked down about a quarter of a million dollars to build it. And as as we went through it, it was really cool cause we walked down the hallway of a spaceship and then you came out into a balcony area and you’re looking over the universe. And then you turn the corner and you came down another hallway back into the spaceship in different part of the spaceship. Just that alone was so powerful, I mean it was literally one divider wall and that’s all it was.

Jack: I guess I’m not giving it enough credit.

Ken: Yeah. Just the one wall and experiencing it was such a powerful moment for us that we said this is just pretty amazing.

Jack: Yeah. It’s weird saying it. Let’s take it to the next level. And then our other partner that’s not here, Curtis Hickman, there was a big problem with virtual reality is if we want to give people a choice and let them go right or left then we’ve got to build all of the walls right or left. Right?

Ken: Virtual. And physical.

Jack: Yeah. Virtual and physical mapped together, right? So it was a pretty big problem.

Ken: [CROSSTALK] A million square foot warehouse.

Jack: Yeah. So actually if you get that then you would have to have this huge place, right? So Curtis Hickman is a brilliant magician. He worked with David Copperfield and created illusions for them. He actually developed our stage system that we use as a unique form of reader active walking so we actually can build a whole city inside of a 60 foot area by redirecting people and turning them back on themselves.

Laurel: So that’s the unique IP really is.

Jack: Yeah. That is one of the unique IPs. We actually have several others based on our technology that we’ve just had to create over time out of necessity.

Laurel: Yeah. Well that’s usually where it comes from right?

Jack: Yep.

Laurel: So what are your secret super powers? So Curtis obviously has this unique ability to make large spaces small. What’s your secret super power?

Jack: My secret super power is, I don’t know, pulling the right people together at the right time, I guess. I don’t know.

Laurel: You could probably describe his secret super power better than he can. [CROSSTALK]

Ken: Probably, yeah.

Laurel: He’s a little shy like no.

Ken: No, he’s a, I think we’re a bunch of children. That’s our secret super power; we’re a bunch of kids. Right? That love what we’re doing. I mean I think it’s that and tenacity and endurance and not sleeping.

Laurel: Well, OK, let’s be more specific. What are you good at?

Jack: What am I good at?

Laurel: Yeah. What’s you’re, are you technically?

Jack: Sort of been all over the place, right? It’s especially, I mean all of our background, we’ve been in visual fax and animation and you know, game development, web development. My specific background and Ken’s, we’ve developed other companies. We’ve had relationships and partnerships and we’re kind of serial entrepreneurs in the sense we’ve learned a lot. We’ve built really great teams and we’ve brought the best people from those teams to this project.

Laurel: Yeah, I guess that’s really the question because when you think about it, why you three guys. Like why are you gonna win here? Right? So.

Jack: We have a magician.


Laurel: You have a magician.

Ken: Call him a wizard.

Jack: Wizard.

Laurel: So what did you do before this? Ken.

Ken: Male stripper, no. That’s a joke. That’s a joke.

Laurel: No it’s not.

Ken: No, I’ve done a lot of things. I’ve literally tried all kinds of businesses in my youth and but I started out in fine arts, just an oil painter, painted paintings, took them to galleries, made crappy money. But I loved what I did but I couldn’t make a really good living at it and so I started doing digital art and doing 3-D animation in the early early days. Then did video game development and then started doing web projects, did front end, back end systems so both the design and then also designing back end systems. I did branding during that time also so I did a lot of digital design and branding. But I think that’s one of the strengths that I brought to the project so I probably brought a lot of the core branding to the company.

Laurel: So the visuals and the branding.

Ken: Yeah, I mean a combination. I did the.


Laurel: And the $250,000. That doesn’t hurt. Where did you get the money? Huh? Where did you get the vic, Ken?

Ken: Back in 2002 I created a company called Digi Serve.

Laurel: Which is what?

Ken: Encryption security. We’re a SSL security provider. We built; I built that company from the ground up with no fundings. The only funding, I had $30,000 of my own money saved and created that business and became the second largest SSL certificate provider in the world.

Laurel: Wow. What year was that?

Ken: That was in 2002 and then over a decade, 10 years, I built that company up and very tough decision but decided to sell the company at the end of 2012 just because it was time to move on to something new. I really wanted to get back to my roots of art and creating and loved like location based entertainment concepts so I took all my passions and kind of put it together and this is where we came together. I mean the three of us were, this is the perfect partnership, it really is.

Jack: Yeah, it really is.

Laurel: So it’s called location based entertainment? Is that what it’s called?

Jack: Location based virtual reality entertainment.

Ken: Yeah.

Laurel: Was that a new category you’re creating or is that already existing location based entertainment?

Ken: I think we’re defining it in a new way right? Really, it was tried maybe back in the 90s, there’s certainly been some VR concepts but I think the technology just wasn’t ready yet at that time. It just wasn’t where it needed to be and so this was the right time for it and I think it’s just our collection of experience with the three of us that we rounded each other out well. I had a little bit more business experience. We actually brought on another partner that is the king of schmooze.


Ken: I mean that in a really good way. I mean that in a really great way. I mean the guy has the biggest rolodex in the world and it’s because he’s a real guy. He’s a relationship person and we’re a little bit, we’re good at some of that but I think we’re really really focused on picture of what we’re creating and that’s where we wanted to put most of our attention, is the creation.

Jack: Yep.

Ken: Of what we’re building. We have a passion for this. I mean we’re not doing this because we’re trying to flip this company or just make a quick buck off of it. We want to build something great. I mean how many people have an opportunity to change history and we have an opportunity to do that and that’s pretty rare.

Laurel: So if it goes right, fast forward five years, 10 years, what’s this look like? Just describe it to your grandmother again.

Jack: We have over how many centers, Ken?

Ken: In the next five years.

Jack: Yeah.

Ken: My guess would be that we’ll have over 500 centers, worldwide.

Jack: Yep. Owned and operated and running pretty much like the movie industry but for virtual reality.

Laurel: So when you say running like the movie industry what does that mean?

Ken: Kind of like a futuristic movie theater.

Jack: Yep.

Laurel: Oh. OK.

Jack: How movies are distributed to theaters, this will be kind of the same thing where content’s created and then distributed to Void centers, people then can pay like a ticket price to just come into the Void center and go into these new worlds and then that content gets changed and altered to have home release. That kind of thing.

Laurel: And you’ll work with different artists perhaps to create different, quote, unquote environments. Cause all you need really is a black room. Right?

Jack: Yeah, exactly. The centers are pretty cool. They have a really beautiful entrance with this lobby that’s filled with all these different artifacts and things that have come back from different dimensions and then after you pass through those artifacts, you get back into where the stages are. We’re going to call them gates and centers so you’ll hear stuff over the intercom, like hey, Jenson, party of five, come back to gate six. You’re going to go on this you know this crazy dimension.

Ken: So instead of going to the theater six, you’re going to a virtual stage that we call gate six.

Jack: They get suited up and they go into virtual reality and when they go into virtual reality half of the building is actually just a warehouse. You see this beautiful entrance. You see these beautiful hallways and it’s all really nicely done and once you get to VR then it’s all digital, right? So more than half of the center is probably just massive beautiful.

Laurel: Digital.

Ken: Each of the stages are 60 by 60 feet so they’re good size areas but they’re commercially viable by building it that way. But they’re infinite in design. That’s what’s so cool about them.

Jack: Yeah.

Laurel: What do you mean by infinite in design?

Ken: We’ve designed them with these really advanced redirective walking techniques that basically we can do tens of thousands of combinations so we can overlay any kind of experience that you can imagine within these stages so. I can put you into a Jurassic world; I can put you into some kind of fantasy world. I could put you into a cartoon world.

Jack: Walk the Titanic.

Ken: Yeah, you could go almost anywhere, right? So it’s really limited only by our imagination and what we want to create. I mean we see education being also really important role in our centers because there’s this wonderful time, Monday to Friday daytime, that most theaters aren’t busy and we will be because we can do various types of entertainment like geared toward education. We can do corporate sharing experiences which is becoming a really big thing. And you know there’s other, lots of other training, different things.

Laurel: Phobias, you can help people overcome phobias. [CROSSTALK] You can train surgeons. You can do all kinds of things.

Jack: Endless. We’re really rebuilding worlds and then allowing us to manipulate them and then put people in them. Put all kinds of things. You can build anything.

Laurel: Sounds like quality real estate play too though, right?

Ken: Yeah, but we’re not the ones doing it. So our primary focus as a company is really to be, we have to be a combination of technologists, sort of constantly in R & D, developing new technologies and hardware to enhance our environment because we want people to put on the equipment and forget about it. We want them to enter another world and just think it’s amazing, right? That’s the magic of it. And then we need to create content so we’re developing a massive studio in house. We’re gonna work with other studios and independent artists and what have you to develop content. And we’ll be licensing a lot of great content through partnerships with film studios and video game studios. But then it has to be housed in these physical locations. That’s the only place to do this. So where do we build those? Well we work with developers, theme park operators.

Laurel: Oh, so you’re going to work with people who already have locations. You’re not going to worry about finding real estate.

Ken: Yeah. That isn’t a cost, that isn’t a cost for us.

Laurel: Oh. OK. OK.

Ken: The developers put up the cost of that and we have the cost of the technology and the content and we share in the joint venture partnership. So most of our partnerships will be split pretty even down the line. In some markets, we may be smaller, in some markets we may have more. But the nice thing is we have a flexible system. We’re not becoming real estate experts. We’re relying on professionals in that industry to help us develop out these great locations worldwide. And it’s already happening.

Laurel: So it’s going to be like a revenue share. So you’re gonna make like, you were telling me or was it you? Somebody, it’s a $30 for twenty minutes. Right?

Jack: Yeah. I mean it’s gonna range depending on that region that we’re in.

Ken: Thirty to 50.

Laurel: So $30 to $50 per twenty minutes, you can get, let me do the math. You can have eight people at one time on eight stages so it’s like $48,000 an hour or some crazy number. Right?

Jack: I wouldn’t have any idea. [LAUGHTER]

Ken: Yeah. I mean yeah, it’s three rotations per hour, right? So it’s, so it’s.

Laurel: Ah, so that’s, well, no, two because it takes 10 minutes to get people set up and stuff.

Ken: No, because they overlap.

Laurel: Oh. So while one.

Jack: We’re able to do three rotations per hour on our stages.


Laurel: Oh my god. So that’s 48,000 times 3 so it’s like $150,000 per hour are gonna go to monetize these suckers. Not bad. And then you have to split it 50-50 so it’s like $75,000 per hour multiplied by five hours of like heavy duty traffic per day times five days, seven days per week, times seven days per week. Disney’s gonna bite you. [LAUGHTER] I just did the math.


Jack: We do modelization pretty great. We just spent a lot of time on the business plan.

Ken: It will be a very very successful model. And it’s actually fairly conservative. These numbers are actually conservative numbers. We’ve done extensive feasibility studies and looked at various points of data and there isn’t an exact example of it, but what’s nice is you can look at things like the haunted industry. The haunted industry has literally in five years in the United States developed to be about a six to seven billion dollar industry and that’s what happened to a lot of things.

Laurel: And that’s just haunted houses, right?

Ken: This is haunted houses, right.

Laurel: Is there somebody who owns that? I didn’t know that.

Ken: A bunch of independent operations, right? But big operations stepped in because it was so successful. So Universal has their, what do they call it? The Hollywood haunted nights? Or something like that?

Jack: Yeah, yeah.

Laurel: Oh my god. And you guys could be doing every day then? This is amazing.


Ken: Yeah. We could do haunted experiences and it could flow with the seasons or.

Laurel: I’m so happy for you. I feel like I’m touching like future, I don’t even know. Disneys.

Ken: Walt.

Laurel: Yeah. Future Walts. I’m touching future Walts. Oh my god.

Ken: That’s the greatest compliment you could ever give us.

Laurel: Oh my god. This is so exciting.

Jack: Yeah, it is. Our centers are pretty cool. Our centers will be linked together in the future so people will be able to experience things with people across the world.

Laurel: Oh my god. That’s.

Ken: If you think about social experiences too. It doesn’t have to just be entertainment in the way that’s kind of low lying fruit like playing a video game, like living a video game. But it can be social experiences where we can have avatars that communicate with each other and interact and we can create events. Like a huge rave party with a virtual DJs and connecting people together inside a virtual world. How cool that would be. You could actually like combine it with art. People are literally creating art and interacting with each other. You know we could do some really wild funky stuff.

Laurel: Can you do paintball?

Jack: Yeah. That was easy. [LAUGHTER]


Ken: That’s like, that’s like and it’s way better.

Laurel: You could do virtual paintball where you don’t have to get wet when you think about it. So what happens when AR comes into play more? Are you just going to adapt that technology into yours or what happens?

Ken: It’s a different technology.

Laurel: I know. I didn’t have to wear a helmet I’d probably rather do AR, no?


Ken: Think about this. The limitation of AR in the sense that we’re talking about using it is actually not more powerful.

Laurel: It’s augmented reality by the way for those that don’t know what we’re talking about.

Ken: Yeah. I mean, I think the thing that it’s cool and there’s applications that could be amazing with AR. In fact when we were building our Evermore Park that’s what we wanted to do to add magic to it cause it’s a physical park and by bringing augmented reality we could bring the magic into it, right? Also do 3-D projection mapping, things like that. But the limitation is if you see the real world, then you’re limited to this space thing. Inside our world, it’s not limited. It’s as deep and as big as you want it to be and can be any world you want it to be. You can’t do that in augmented reality. You can only augment reality.

Laura: Yeah. Gotch ya.

Jack: For instance we could have eight foot ceilings in The Void but you would be seeing the space. Right?

Laurel: Right.

Ken: I think the key point is we’re doing the opposite. We’re taking virtual reality and augmenting it with physical reality. I mean that’s the cool thing about all of it.

Laurel: So you need to come up with a phrase for that. Virtual reality augmented with physical reality.

Jack: We need to get an acronym.

Laurel: Yeah. You do. VR some, you got to come up with that. Seriously. That’s the only way to be [unclear] guys.

Jack: Virtual reality, physical VR. PVR.

Laurel: Yeah. PVR.


Jack: PVA, PVR. Physical Virtual Reality.

Laurel: Physical Virtual Reality.

Ken: Call it PVR.

Laurel: Seriously. You have to have your acronyms.

Jack: This has happened right now.

Laurel: Alright. Alright. We just invented something. It was awesome. I told you. Creativity. It happens in threes, threesomes.


Laurel: So speaking of sex, are you ever gonna branch out?

Jack: No, never, No. No point. No reason too.

Laurel: No? Never, no? Cause you could make a lot more money that way.

Jack: Yeah, you could always make a lot more money with technology. It wouldn’t be the first time we’ve been approached about this, right, Ken?

Laurel: OK. So let me ask you about this then. What about the B to B. Like you’re strictly C to C, I mean consumer facing, right? What about the B to B applications? Those could be even bigger and just as sexy. Like for example a friend was mentioning that you could use your, for flight training. You could your use your technology to do flight simulators much better and much cheaper. And airlines have to spend millions and millions and bazillions a year on flight simulations for their pilots. All their pilots have to go through this. So you could have a whole division that’s just like our pilot division.

Jack: Exactly.

Ken: Yeah, we love those cause our centers are going to have motion simulators also. So this is an area that we haven’t really dug into in a lot of detail but those motion simulators are going to be set up so they can be any kind of vehicle motion including fighting robots or something. So I imagine strapping into a motion simulator and being in fighting robots and then we network those together inside our virtual stages. And now you could have a giant game like Tight and Fall or something like that inside of it as an example. Those are the kinds of things that we can play out inside this world but we also see many verticals starting to form in our business and you know, one of those verticals we think is really interesting is kind of taking these motion simulators and these B to B opportunities for driver education. I have four daughters myself and I’ve gone through drivers licenses with some of them and it’s just hell putting your kids on the road because what happens is they read a book and they go out with a driving instructor in suburbia America on simple little streets. And now they’re on the road. Now you’re on the road, right?

Laurel: Oh my god.

Ken: And so as a parent it’s awful just knowing that your kids may not come home alive one day because they are not prepared to drive in any way.

Jack: The different environments they might.


Laurel: That alone should be.

Ken: So I actually take, I take a lot of time to like take them in the parking lots and really teach them how to drive and try to recreate situations when driving but the problem is you can’t do that in the real world. It’s too dangerous. In our world, in our simulators, we can actually do situational driving.

Laurel: This is going to be amazing. That alone is gonna be a billion dollars.

Jack: And you can just apply that to everything.

Laurel: Right. So are you hiring?

Ken: We’re actually hiring a lot of people right now.

Jack: We are hiring a lot of people with open positions all the time.

Laurel: So tell me more about your financial situation like how do you raise capital? What’s your? You’re definitely raising capital with this one, right?

Ken: Yeah. Quite a bit. So we went an interesting route because I had money and our other partner had money, we were able to do the seed capital around and that’s really important for a company to be able to have that option, right? A lot of companies don’t have that and you’re going to give away the biggest chunk of your company at that moment. Right? We didn’t have to give it away. And so the next round, we knew what we had and we valued our business model and we stuck to our guns and said, this is going to be the price and it wasn’t a cheap price but it was a fair price. What I like to call a fair price and we haven’t given up our company. So we raised quite a bit of capital. We’re raising more which is available to us from many different potential partners. But we’re picking our partnerships wisely. We want good partners that bring a lot of strategic value. You know when you’re a young entrepreneur you just want to whatever money you can get your hands on and then just because you’re starving and trying to get some Kraft macaroni and cheese and live out of it. But we were in the fortunate position. We didn’t have to do that so then when you’re in that position, I think one of the most important things is just get great partners that bring lots of other values to the table beyond just the money and if you can get those right kind of partnerships together it really goes a long way into really helping you develop a really successful business.

Laurel: So how much are you raising now?

Ken: A lot.

Laurel: What’s a lot? A hundred million? Ten million?

Ken: I can’t, I can’t. No, more than that. So. It takes a lot to build what we’re building.

Jack: It does. I mean we’re building like four companies smashed into one and we’re building technology and content.

Laurel: I guess you want constantly you’re trying to hire celebrities and the money folk.

Ken: Lots of different things. There’s a lot of money that goes into engineering. When you get into technology, engineering and prototype design and then manufacturing of the units that you’re developing, there’s a lot of different business units in our company. It’s a very complex project because we have not only technology, but we have content creation, we have licensing deals, we have. So you’re getting into that whole ball of wax and just putting together all of these different deals you start dividing a lot of different departments because you need people to kind of head those up. And we have kind of an interesting way of developing our business. We believe in really creating a win-win situation with our employees and creating a great environment and we want people to have decision making power and even as we scales to a big company, most big companies loose that. We never want to get in that position. We want to make sure that our company is managed from both the bottom up and the top down.

Laurel: So what does that look like effectively?

Ken: It just means that you’re enabling people to make decisions and to have some freedom.


Laurel: How do you express that? How do you make sure that happens?

Ken: It’s really being well organized, I think, especially if your smaller it’s not too difficult to do that. But when you’re bigger you have to trust people and you have to let go a little bit and not over control the business. Allow people to be the creative wonderful professionals that they are and allow them to just build, help you build a great company. And that’s just bringing on the right people. I think one of the key most difficult things is to really get the best possible people that you can get and that isn’t just skill set. I think what that looks like is just bringing on people that you like, you trust, and.

Laurel: So you’re going to be hiring how many people over the next few months or years, or how long?

Ken: Over the next year, I think our studio will grow probably too 500 or more people.

Laurel: So how in the hell are you doing that? [LAUGHTER] That’s actually, that’s a huge talent section. That’s hard.

Jack: The hard part is managing the influx of people that want to work at The Void right now, actually. I mean this is probably the coolest project that you could imagine for all those people out there that are creating films and creating video games and we’re smashing those two huge industries together. There’s a lot of great talent out there.

Laurel: Has it gotten a lot of press or gotten interest?

Jack: Yes.

Laurel: OK. And so there’s people that have found out about you and now they’re coming through all channels and you’ve got to just manage, figure out who the right people are. What’s your theory about hiring and firing and how do you, you know, how do you, what if you make a mistake. You hire somebody?

Ken: We’ve found that we’ve developed such a good culture that people, they weed themselves out.

Jack: [unclear]. Weed themselves out, yeah.

Ken: If they don’t participate and don’t really bring their best to the table, they don’t feel comfortable being with us. They don’t want to be there. Because and it’s not pushing them out, it’s really just realizing that they can’t really fulfil what needs to be done and so we need great skill sets and then we want great personalities and people get really excited about what we’re doing and they put their all into it. And that’s what we do, you know. We lead by example too so we’re right there with them.

Laurel: Is this going to be a public company eventually or do you think you’ll sell it?

Ken and Jack: No, no.

Laurel: You don’t want it to be public.

Ken and Jack: No, never.

Laurel: You want it to be a big lifestyle.

Jack: Yes. We want to stay with this.

Ken: The problem with the public company is.

Laurel: You’ve got investors.

Ken: As soon as you become a public company it’s about numbers. It’s all about quotas and all the fun goes away.

Jack: All the fun goes away and you don’t.

Ken: I also think that it can be really disruptive to the success of a business. Why can’t you be private and actually make profitability? Profitable business.

Laurel: Because you have investors. As soon as you get investors in you have a problem of having to please them and they want to sell or they want to exit or IPO. So what do you do to manage the expectations of investors then?

Ken: We tell that we never want to go public. And they don’t have a majority control. We have control of our company.


Laurel: OK. So how do they get their money back?

Ken: By us making profitability. And there’s micro assets that can happen. You don’t have to just to just sell the whole company. There’s lots of opportunity to create liquidity in a company, even a private company. So you just have to get creative on how you do that. I think you know, with a lot of the strategics too, if you get the right strategic partners [CROSSTALK] they have bigger interests in the long run.

Laurel: Yeah, yeah. They want to bind. They want to [CROSSTALK].

Ken: Well and it’s also that there’s opportunities through our company with their companies to benefit more ways than just the investment in our company.

Laurel: Yeah, sure. Those are the best people.

Ken: Those are the good kind of partnerships that we look for.

Laurel: Yeah. You definitely don’t want BCs. [LAUGHTER] Really, I mean, no offense. No offense, BCs.

Ken: They play a role but not in our world.

Jack: Not in our world.

Ken: They’ve got more private equity and other strategic investments.

Laurel: This is so cool. It’s very, a really great exciting thing and I hope to stay in touch with you guys as you grow.

Jack: Yeah, it was great talking to you.

Laurel: Yeah, it was great to have you on the show. Thank you so much.

Jack: Thank you.

Laurel: Bye everybody.